Curse

Meralda estat · May 03, 2008, 10:55 AM // 10:55

GW has from my view very litel of grind in it. Here titels are your own choise to grind for. You never need to grind for "End Game" gear like other MMO's. The only grind there is, is the grind you your self chose to do.

People that has played Lineage II, Final Fantasy XI, MU, EVE Online and so on knows what it is to grind for things in games.
GW has never pushed it on there players to grind for anything.
People that keep complaning of "Ursan" then dont use it.
Sure you might not get party's for UW,FoW or DoA as fast without it tho its your choise.

The bigest problem with GW-Pve is there is nothing to do after you beat the game then to "grind" for title's. End game is very borring.

GW-Pvp from my view is rather borring. I play AB and RA rather mutch to learn more about skills and learn things about pvp. Tho HA... always wanted to do it. Tho there are never people that want to take ppl under Rank X and there for many ppl never get the chance to try it and learn, most of all people get borred with pvp because they never get the chance to learn it.

Hara Makoto · May 03, 2008, 11:00 AM // 11:00

there is an element of grinding if you want to max the titles . whether that's the farming to get your sweet tooth title , or doing vanquishes . but maxing the harder titles is one of the motivational things that is why people play guild wars , so you can't really complain , if all the titles only took a couple of hours then i imagine very few people would actually play the game

IattackU · May 03, 2008, 01:08 PM // 13:08

You, and only you, can decide what kind of game you want it to be. If you want to grind all day, then there you go. If not then, thats cool too.

Thizzle · May 03, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Tell the guy buying Obsidian armor you don't need to grind. You really don't, but if you really wanted the most said to be prestigious armor then you have to grind to get ectos and shards. I've never bought Obsidian and never have, but it would be nice to get if it were reasonable. Sweet Tooth is not a grinding title at all.

R_Frost · May 03, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

i dont stick to one character and wont til more solid info about GW2 comes along. i enjoy playing the game and through the story line on all 11 of my characters(one of each profession + a second ranger). im aiming for KoaBD for each profession right now starting with triple protectors for each profession. GW2 is still a long way off and if i stuck to one profession til then i probably wouldnt even be interested in getting GW2 because burnout would of set in by now. i started down the one profession track about 6 months ago then got bored with the game. playing all 10 professions kinda gave me interest again. ive only grinded in EoTN on 2 characters and that was for armor reasons. once i get all 11 through the 3 games(EoTN doesnt count) then maybe ill take all 11 through in HM. who knows by then some more info will be out about GW2 and what titles will actually mean transfering from GW1 to GW2. if its something that will actually make a difference other then vanity i stick to my ranger,monk and mesmer to get their max title count up til GW2 gets released. as of now i cant see a reason to go after GWAMM on any character. ANET put 10 professions in the game and damnit im going to play each one

DivineEnvoy · May 03, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

I defined grind is a previous post.

That wasn't my point. I was merely trying to point out how it is impossible to have an universal definition to what grind is, and because of this, we can't really discuss this topic to actually have any productive means.

MasterSasori · May 03, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

That wasn't my point. I was merely trying to point out how it is impossible to have an universal definition to what grind is, and because of this, we can't really discuss this topic to actually have any productive means.

In actuality the whole Ursan discussion included is pretty useless as how most of the reasons are difficult to support with hard facts and because ANet isn't going to change it anyway.

Deleet · May 03, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

What is grind anyways?

I have seen people claiming that login on the game and play is a grind. I have also seen people claiming that repeating the storyline with a second character is a grind. I have also seen people claiming that getting a title is a grind.

Everyone has a different definition and a different scale to what grind is. If the concept of grind cannot be defined, how do we discuss this?

I defined grind is a previous post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DivineEnvoy

That wasn't my point. I was merely trying to point out how it is impossible to have an universal definition to what grind is, and because of this, we can't really discuss this topic to actually have any productive means.

It's not impossible (at least, you have not shown it be impossible). And it's also unnecessary to have an universal (accepted?) definition of 'grind'. Definitions are agreed upon before discussion commence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

In actuality the whole Ursan discussion included is pretty useless as how most of the reasons are difficult to support with hard facts and because ANet isn't going to change it anyway.

It doesn't follow that it is useless. You are probably correct in assuming that ANet will not heavily change or remove Ursan/PvE skills, but they may still be deciding what to do in GW2. We may still sway the design of GW2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

For those that are grinding their little hearts out... Do you expect to play GW and nothing else until the release of GW2? I find it hard to stay logged in to GW these days before boredom kicks in, so I play a few other games.

I don't understand why people need to keep playing once they have completed the story lines and mastered the Elite areas. I do love GW, it's glorious to behold and plays so well, but I've done as much as I need to now. I played more than casually and racked up 14 titles which may or may not be average, I don't know, but to achieve my next title would take more time than I could be bothered with. So I stopped.

When I log in now it is to PuG with newbs in Prophecies as I enjoy helping (I play monk and force them to do all the killing). Anything else would be grinding and I feel I have done enough of that now.

It's what I call the MMO syndrome. The idea that you can only play one game. When the game becomes boring, it's the games fault. One is thereby assuming that the game has an infinite amount of entertainment time, which is false.

Phineas · May 04, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

For those that are grinding their little hearts out... Do you expect to play GW and nothing else until the release of GW2? I find it hard to stay logged in to GW these days before boredom kicks in, so I play a few other games.

I don't understand why people need to keep playing once they have completed the story lines and mastered the Elite areas. I do love GW, it's glorious to behold and plays so well, but I've done as much as I need to now. I played more than casually and racked up 14 titles which may or may not be average, I don't know, but to achieve my next title would take more time than I could be bothered with. So I stopped.

When I log in now it is to PuG with newbs in Prophecies as I enjoy helping (I play monk and force them to do all the killing). Anything else would be grinding and I feel I have done enough of that now.

Riceboi · May 04, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

I don't mind grinding because I was a farmer even when it was just Prophecies. The thing I hated was all the different farming nerfs starting with the protective bond nerf.

Thizzle · May 04, 2008, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

For those that are grinding their little hearts out... Do you expect to play GW and nothing else until the release of GW2? I find it hard to stay logged in to GW these days before boredom kicks in, so I play a few other games.

I don't understand why people need to keep playing once they have completed the story lines and mastered the Elite areas. I do love GW, it's glorious to behold and plays so well, but I've done as much as I need to now. I played more than casually and racked up 14 titles which may or may not be average, I don't know, but to achieve my next title would take more time than I could be bothered with. So I stopped.

When I log in now it is to PuG with newbs in Prophecies as I enjoy helping (I play monk and force them to do all the killing). Anything else would be grinding and I feel I have done enough of that now.

I'm lost... I stopped playing GW and don't know what to play anymore.

Phoenix Tears · May 04, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Guild Wars is Grind Wars and will ever stay so, if Anet doesn't finally makes some major changes, which make the game again so much fun, as itmade, before all the massive Grind found its way into the Game with Factions,NF and EotN....

To say, that you have here in GW a "choice", if you want to grind, or not is simple absolutely WRONG!!! Why ?

Because its the Will of the bad "Community" - the Meta, that forces anyone to grind every shit to max to become considered to be taken into parties. Elitist Snobs to point the finger on the correct problem's name, be it in PvE or in PvP, they exist in both Modes and make the gameplay for casual players a hell.

Elitist Snobs are like a disease - where they appear in a Game, they will infect very quick other players with their sick minds of Powergaming and that you are in the Game only something worth, when you hardcore grinded your ass off for every prestigeous stuff, you can get in the Game. People, for which you are in in their Eyes a Noob, when you are not GWAMM, wear not an Obsidian Armor or at least own one, have not a full set of r9, but better naturally 8 Weapons of the more prestigeous looking Weapons, like Zodiac/Celestial Items, but especially especially naturally now those rare Contest Items, which get handled like super rare limited Minipets, which are an other topic, but also count in in the List of "Pro' ness" for these people, until they accept others under them and stop looking at others from above, as if they are noobs, only because you own not these things and aren't so rich like them.

But these people are it then, which make the biggest QQ about it, when such people get then maybe banned, because Anet found out, that under all these superficial Posers where xxxxx Dupers and other Cheaters like Ebay Gold Buyers.

However...

We all know, what must happen, to let GW become again the funny Game it was once, so does ANet, but they are sooo lazy and now naturally too busy with working on GW2, that never will anythign happen about it, until GW1 will die out and thats just sad.

The game would make much more fun again, if finally only would be all the Grind based titles, especially those with unfair andvantageous Effects, account based. Then it would make again sense to play with all your Characters and not just only with your Main Character that you have chosen as Title Hunter. To this Change would naturally also belong, that the Hall of Monuments should finally become Account based.
The Hall of Monuments, seen as Feature of the Game makes only sense, when its Account Based, character based is this feature total nonsense!!! Its the Player of the Account, which does all the work. Not every single Character. The Characters are just ONLY Avatars of the Player and nothign more that should be considered to be so special, that every Character of the Player has to be counted as a single individuum >.>

Non one would be so stupid to make one or more of those 100% money based titles like Sweettooth to make with more than the Title Hunter Character, because of the insane Grind that is bound to these Titles.
Also these Grind Titles are just annoying for the general Gameplay, because whenever you get some stuff either dropped or otherway aquired with one of your non Title Hunter Characters, you have to move all your stuff ever first from Chara B to Chara A, which is the Title Hunter. HWen you have to do this now a couple hundreds of times, while playing, someday it makes you sick of the game of the permanent character switchign and running back and forth to the Xunlai Chest to switch the stuff over. So more is it annoying, when your Chest is then relatively full and the space is naturally limited with the result, that you have maybe to do this work more, than once to switch over all the stuff from Chara B to A.

Would be those stupid Grind Titles just finally account based, all this switchign shit would find immediately an End, because thwen players would have not to worry about, with which character you identify gold items, with which character you drink alcohol, eat sweets or use party items.

Would those dumb PvE Skills also not be bounded to Titles, then there would be lesser Grind about thsoe Titles and ONLY then would players really have a CHOICE about, if you care for those titles maxing, or not, but then those titles would totally loose their reason for existance, as long anet would give them not an other meaning, that doesn't lead into Grind, but adds to the game more content inf form of for exaple more Quests, race title specific Quest Lines, that you can only make, when the reputation for a race is high enough...

Would be the Hall of Monuments account based, lots of the games retarded Grind would vanish immedietely too.
Non one is so retarded to buy of a minipet more than 1. The Minipet Monument belongs to be account based...
Same with Destroyer Weapons. No one would be so retarded to buy more than 1 of each. its just silly enough, that anet forces us, to put this ugly looking shit ionto the monument and simple lets us not put 11 max modded r9 items of our wish onto it, because this would be the only reason with that i could accept this monument to let it stay character based !!!
otherwise this monument belongs to be account based to erase alot of retarded Grind out of the game.

Hero Monument could be also account based, everytime we get one of the 25 heroes first, they get already unlocked for the Account pvp-wise, so they can also get handled for PvE about Elite Armors, because to get 25 Armor Remnants for your heroes for each single character is just retarded grind, that mostly costs you alot of time or money, when you want to reduce the time needed to be spent for it to a minimum. So hero monument is also too one, that could be easily accouht based. Title Monument is also nothign, that should be character based, its easy to change it to account based, with the difference, that this account based is ONLY meant for the show off of the titles for the Monument, but not for the single characters.

Would mean, all titles that any of your characters received get unlocked for show off at your Hall of Monument, but only the characters, that have the titles maxed are able to show it with the character under their Name -this would be the most best and most simple hybrid solution

The only Monument, that can never be account based is the one for Characters Elite Armors, unless anet would change the monument so that it can show armors of all your characters of your account, then it could be also account based and the whole feature could be accountbased, what it should have been from the start on. But Eye of the North was from the start on imo only a cheap half hearted Add On of originally being the 4th Campaign, which got ripped into pieces, because the time had run out for them to complete Utopia, decided to give us only that stuff, so far they got until that point under an other crap Concept full of Grind, that would ensure them, that players get long enough somethign to do, so long they work on GW2...

But let us speak of the truth - Naet it would have been really a much better decision, to give us a really big COMPLETE, similar to the Size of Prophecies 4th Campaign, then this really half hearted cheap Add on imo ...
GW Utopia would have added alot more Content to the game, that could enjoy us over longer time, than this "Grind On" Eye of the North does, which story alone is sooo short, that you play it through in a day, if you are skilled and then you have nothign to do anymore, other than just Grinding for Titles/Armors, Contest Items and hope of really good luck to get them, grind farm for materials like Destroyer Cores, where you need "naturally" a full stack of 250 for them, where 50 or 100 would have been enough (>.<) and money for the few special custom headgears & gloves.
--------

But it are not only the Titles, which add to the Game a horrible Grind Factor, which is so terrible, that it even forces players to concentrate only onto mostly playing 1 single Character, as long it goes not only over simple gold farming, where it is thankfully still regardless, with which character you make it, as long you have at least one character, with that you are able to farm, as long Anet nerfs not every farming points too death instantly, with that also casual gamers would have had chances to make good money >.>

It also the too strong manifestation on certain material for armors and especially now also too consumeables. Those you have to grind for now all the certain material to create you enough of them to have full sets, because otherwise you don't find nowadays groups anymore for HM Elite area and also in NM start more and more people now to have this Elitist Snob Behavior of kicking everyone, who has not a full set of Consums within - just retarded.
The game focus only onto 2 single rare material - Ectos and Obsi Shards, how silly is that please. GW - a Game, where Diamonds are lesser worth, than Rubies and Saphires ROFL and that, where are Diamonds the most valuable and rare Gemstones of all !!

Would add anet just now finally some alternative ways into the game to archive FoW Armor and the Gloves, that cost Ectos, the price of them would fall down to a normal value.

Would add anet too other alternative ways into the game, to let players create somehow the colors, Black and White would immediately fall down to a normal value, because i think not, that there should be a reason, why those 2 colors should cost more, than any of the other ones. imo should have colors so or so fix prices, that don't get anyhow affected the by games economy.
Let all colors sell for say 500g or 1 platin at the NPC and it would be good.
Same with Runes...

This economy of the game about the affection of demand and suply is imo a total crap concept, because its ovious, that such a system will lead ever someday into total broken inflations due to players dictating their insane wish prices. That in this game exist lots of thigns, that sell ingame for 100P xxxxxxxxxx ectos or even xxxx Armbraces is for me absolutely an indicator for this game being total broken, by heavy inflation.
Money is in this game absolutely nothing worth anymore, when you have to pay somethign ingame with 100p and thousands of ectos to hundreds of armcrace,s which are only a very few people able to pay, hwich are only them ost best powertraders, but mostly more only cheatign gold buyers and those god damn dupers, which somehow doesn't got hit by the almighty Ban Hammer, which lets me believe as honest player somehow, that this Game has also become somehow a bit corrupted, when there exist players in the game, that didn't somehow got banned, even when its clear, that they deserve it, where everyone can imagine, that the only way it can be , that some personal reason protects them from the ban ...and thats the absolute most heavy NO GO for a games image imo, to protect cheaters, not bannign them, even when they deserve it, cause of beign friends or so or knowign somehow those players, which cheated...

But thats exactly also one reason, why Guild Wars is so much full of retarded Grind. Would this game not be so full of it, then would have so much people it not neccessary to cheat -to buy gold from professional illegal botters or to exploit such cheap bugs to dupe items. Because you make in Guild Wars simple way too slow money

Lets say you buy all your alcohol minutes for only 100g/minute. Sum this up with 10k minutes and it would still require you to get 1 Million Gold !!!, but mostly its 1,5 Million gold, because people sell mostly the minute for 150g...
Now find the casual gamer, that doesn't have luck with really valuable golden drops, that has only like 30-45 minutes at randomous days in a week, that should grind farm this sum of money with a humanous time effort. Just impossible, because you make so less money with normal playing, that it takes several months of playing to get all the money together, just by playing the game. To get this money, you would have to play 1000x a Dungeon Quest, that rewaerds you with 1,5 Platin.
1000x play a Dungeon is to me personally a big grind. Would it be now only 250x or so, then it would be alot more acceptable for the time effort.
GW is just way too bad rewarding players. The rewards in GW are EVER too cheap for the effort you've done and that has to be changed imo to reduce the Grind of the game and to make out of Grind Wars again Guild Wars, where they gameplay doesn't turn about only, how rich you are and how much time you've spent with the game to become so rich.
GW has to get rid of this Time>Skill Scheme they changed to over the time, since factions got released with its titles having become the start of the ending of the games retarded changes, that turned the game more and more into Grind Wars.

But anet's much bigger fault was it imo, that they absolutely didn't have shown any care for their game, when they HAD the time and the chance to rescue GW with some concept change updates, before it would have been too late for those changes, but anet did absolutely nothing, they just waited, how their implementions destroyed more and more over the time the original concept of the game. GW really became imo from campaign to campaign only worser and worser in kind of Grind...
They did make monthly Skill balancings and do it still until today, for that they have had EVER time enough. They changed concepts of the gameplay about Skils, i personally never will understand, why they never had time enough to make some really needed concept changes of the games gameplay, when they really had enough time for them, when it was obvious, that these broken concepts wil lead into a broken game full of Grind, which breaks their own promised words of Skill>Time.

Would anet really care for their game and their original promise of Skill>Time, would never exists such grind titles in the Game, like Sweettooth, Drunkard, Party animal, Wisdom and Treasure Hunter, because these Titles absolutely don#t require you any Skill, the only thign they require you is to be super rich and to grind your ass off for them and Grind Titles should never exist in GW and even whern so, then only as account based titles to keep the grind at a minimum for the PLAYER, which is the only indiviuum which does all the work, not every single character >.<

Let us all hope, that GW2 will become alot better and especially not so heavy infected with retarded Grind, like GW1, and if GW2 gets again character based Titles, the for the games sake please ONLY ones, that require from the Player Skill and Playing Knowledge, Titles, like Protector/Guardian, Cartographer, Vanguisher and Skill Hunter. Such titles are good, because they only require you to play the Game and you don't have really to grind for them (excluding Skill Hunter, as long you have to pay money for such retarded Signets to be able to learn new Elite Skills from Bosses). Anything else, like PvP and FUN Titles, because nothing else are those Money Grind ones, if they should get converted over, then only account based!!

For GW1 all those major changes are now way too late cause of Anet being too lazy to handle and solve the problems, when they had time enough for them to fix them, so that the game wouldn't have had changed into a 1 Character Play-MMO, because of so much grind, that it has become senseless mostly to play with more than 1 character, other than for the will to play with all characters to receive the feeling of their gameplay over the other professions.

End of Novel-Criticism Opinion about GW's retarded Grind Factor

Flame away Trolls, which are too lazy too read bigger Postings, which await of Forums to be like Chat Rooms

ogre_jd · May 04, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Guild Wars is Grind Wars and will ever stay so, if Anet doesn't finally makes some major changes, which make the game again so much fun, as itmade, before all the massive Grind found its way into the Game with Factions,NF and EotN....

Factions: Minimal required grind, if any. Unless you consider AB, or doing quests, or taking the blessings/bounties and killing things while you move from region to region instead of just sneaking past mobs in your way to be grind. Even if you needed 100k faction (first title rank) to be able to do everything on one side, it doesn't exactly take long if you're in an aligned guild. Note that donating faction to your guild or buying skills (not that you can do the latter 'til you have rank 1) adds double the amount of faction you've donated to your title. Buying amber/jadeite or the scrolls is a 1-for-1 deal of faction-for-title points.

Nightfall: Minimal required grind, if any. 2500 Sunspear points (rank 7, 'Sunspear General') for Elonian characters to be able to do "And A Hero Shall Lead Them" and beyond. Not all that hard to get, at least as long as you don't forget to pick up bounties and don't bypass the appropriate mobs when traveling from place to place. And, obviously, quests give you points... Rank 3 in Lightbringer to unlock the skills, apparently. 1000 points there.

Eye of the North: Zero required grind. Rank 5 in each rep line is the last you need to unlock any content (and most of the skills are useful enough at that point) and isn't at all hard to reach without grinding. Do quests and dungeons, fill the books and turn them in, check in at each shrine you pass for the bounties, etc...

Uber Mass · May 04, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

you can choose to grind but the game is very playable without any grind.....

you want to know what grind is? go play wow... now thats grind

@ Phoenix Tears... please throw out your game and leave this forum

Longasc · May 04, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Ogre, you are right in the way that the bare minimum does not require any grind.

But what is considered endgame is nothing else but grind of the most primitive kind. GW became a title hunt over the years. People demanded it, they wanted something to grind for - and now they despise it.

Maxing Sunspear, Lightbringer. The whole max that title track stuff. We know in what ways it is done, see wurm runs. And it offers benefits to the skill title tracks associated with it.

Sure, it is all optional. But this optional grind is all that is left to do for people after a while. Unless they play PvP, which also should get stale after a while unless people decide they want to grind till rank X in HA or just love playing GvG forever, the idea of PvP as unlimited fun endgame content that does not work for many players.

Another negative factor was also that you get rewarded for playing one toon to get all benefits, while playing multiple chars really stalls your progress in any title track and yields you nothing for the HoM, title track or whatsoever.

This is what the game became. Of course, one could be snide and say playing the game at all is optional. :>

Solas · May 04, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thizzle

Tell the guy buying Obsidian armor you don't need to grind. You really don't, but if you really wanted the most said to be prestigious armor then you have to grind to get ectos and shards. I've never bought Obsidian and never have, but it would be nice to get if it were reasonable. Sweet Tooth is not a grinding title at all.

The reason that it is prestigious is because of its cost, although the price has halved in the last year i think thats as reasonable as it'll get.

not sure iff sweet tooth was sarcasm or not:S
but it is a grind title ,frist grinding thhe money then pressing the button 20,000 times.

it would be good it the ab title was per ab games won as opposed to faction donated><
and the pve benifits were a bad way to go unfortunatly

still overall great game.

Abedeus · May 04, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meralda estat

GW has from my view very litel of grind in it. Here titels are your own choise to grind for. You never need to grind for "End Game" gear like other MMO's. The only grind there is, is the grind you your self chose to do.

Yeah, and storks bring children, stem kills and drinking methanol will not make you blind. Keep living in delusion.

Quote:

you can choose to grind but the game is very playable without any grind.....

you want to know what grind is? go play wow... now thats grind

Hahaha. Very playable? You mean normal campaign, without the Heroes' Ascent, TA, UW/FoW/DoA/vanquish/hard mode/every other god damn thing?

And yeah, there is a lot of grind in WoW and other mmorpgs. But guess what, IT'S ACTUALLY FUN THERE. Grind makes sense there, because if someone grinds more, he is better (well, his eq and character). Here it's just a bit more damage from Ursan/no benefit in PvP.

Quote:

Eye of the North: Zero required grind. Rank 5 in each rep line is the last you need to unlock any content (and most of the skills are useful enough at that point) and isn't at all hard to reach without grinding. Do quests and dungeons, fill the books and turn them in, check in at each shrine you pass for the bounties, etc...

HAHAHAHHA OHOOHOHO BUAHHHA God, best damn joke I've ever heard. Eye of the North: Maximum grind - you need it for better skills, getting reskinned armor/weapons/consumables, access to those things, getting into Pugs, vanquishing, DoA... Same goes for Nightfall - don't have r8/monk? Gtfo grind 10 hours mindlessly.

Quote:

Sure you might not get party's for UW,FoW or DoA as fast without it tho its your choise.

/facepalm

Uber Mass · May 04, 2008, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Hahaha. Very playable? You mean normal campaign, without the Heroes' Ascent, TA, UW/FoW/DoA/vanquish/hard mode/every other god damn thing?

yes you can actually play and finish the campaigns and the elites without grind... my girlfriend managed that also..

Abedeus · May 04, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Eh. You didn't get it - you can ONLY finish campaigns. Nothing else, maybe farm solo.

Uber Mass · May 04, 2008, 04:48 PM // 16:48

You can also play elites UW/DOA/Urgoz/Deep and so on...but nvm dont feel like going into a discussion